* * * Wizards Community Thread * * * -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Thread : My players tried this - how do I rule it? Started at 04-13-09 12:57 PM by benichov Visit at http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1175778 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 1] Author : benichov Date : 04-13-09 12:57 PM Thread Title : My players tried this - how do I rule it? Anyone who has played d&d for more than 45 minutes will understand this. 2 PC's - both 5th level. The fighter in my group wants to throw the elven archer high above the monster (wererat). The idea is, as the elf is flying above the wererat, he shoots a couple of arrows at it, and lands on his feet on the opposite side of the wererat. The PC's, then, have surrounded the wererat and they look bad-ass. ** sigh** Here's my take. 1. the elven archer sets up a trigger: when I am in the air, I will shoot arrows at the wererat. 2. on the dwarf's turn, he throws the elf. he roles a DC 10 vs athletics 3. as the elf is sailing through the air, he shoots at the monster. I am giving him a -5 to hit, but I'm reducing that to -2 to hit because the wererat is looking at the elf with his mouth wide open saying "oh, what the hell is THIS?" 4. the elf then needs to roll DC 20 vs acrobatics to land safely. Seem about right? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 2] Author : tiornys Date : 04-13-09 01:05 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? Anyone who has played d&d for more than 45 minutes will understand this. 2 PC's - both 5th level. The fighter in my group wants to throw the elven archer high above the monster (wererat). The idea is, as the elf is flying above the wererat, he shoots a couple of arrows at it, and lands on his feet on the opposite side of the wererat. The PC's, then, have surrounded the wererat and they look bad-ass. ** sigh** Here's my take. 1. the elven archer sets up a trigger: when I am in the air, I will shoot arrows at the wererat. 2. on the dwarf's turn, he throws the elf. he roles a DC 10 vs athletics 3. as the elf is sailing through the air, he shoots at the monster. I am giving him a -5 to hit, but I'm reducing that to -2 to hit because the wererat is looking at the elf with his mouth wide open saying "oh, what the hell is THIS?" 4. the elf then needs to roll DC 20 vs acrobatics to land safely. Seem about right?If you feel like this kind of improvisation is idiotic, and want to discourage it, then this is about right. In that case, however, you should probably be up-front with your players and let them know that you want them to come up with something more intelligent/feasible/whatever, else be penalized, rather than let them get mid-way into it and then telling them they are being penalized. Personally, I think it's amusing, and I would allow it to do what they seem to be trying to do (have the elf make ranged attacks and make it to the other side of the enemy without provoking OA's). I might even let him have combat advantage from sheer "are they actually doing that?!?" factor. However, the elf is definitely provoking OA's on the way up and on the way down, so he'd better have clear takeoff and landing points. Rules-wise, I'd probably run a mini-skill challenge. Dwarf and Elf each make Athletics checks. If both succeed, they pull it off without problems. If the Dwarf fails, the Elf jumps as high as his Athletics check allows, which probably isn't high enough to do what he wants. If the Elf fails, he's going to take falling damage (which he can use Acrobatics to reduce if trained). If both fail, the Elf is flying into the enemy. t~ -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 3] Author : Cpt_Micha Date : 04-13-09 01:06 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? Anyone who has played d&d for more than 45 minutes will understand this. 2 PC's - both 5th level. The fighter in my group wants to throw the elven archer high above the monster (wererat). The idea is, as the elf is flying above the wererat, he shoots a couple of arrows at it, and lands on his feet on the opposite side of the wererat. The PC's, then, have surrounded the wererat and they look bad-ass. ** sigh** Here's my take. 1. the elven archer sets up a trigger: when I am in the air, I will shoot arrows at the wererat. 2. on the dwarf's turn, he throws the elf. he roles a DC 10 vs athletics 3. as the elf is sailing through the air, he shoots at the monster. I am giving him a -5 to hit, but I'm reducing that to -2 to hit because the wererat is looking at the elf with his mouth wide open saying "oh, what the hell is THIS?" 4. the elf then needs to roll DC 20 vs acrobatics to land safely. Seem about right? First rule no Negatives. Unless you are actively trying to discourage this. This in no way imbalances the game. Follow Page 42. Two checks, one for Elf (Acrobatics) one for Dwarf (athletics or a Str check your choice) there you go. Both succeed they get what they want. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 4] Author : benichov Date : 04-13-09 01:08 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? I actually found it hilarious - thank you for your reply. I love this kind of stuff, and find it to be the "essence" of d&d - these are the stories we will tell each other between games. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 5] Author : TrothgardtheMad Date : 04-13-09 01:08 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? DC 10 for throwing the elf seems a little low, 15 maybe would be my first thought or even closer to 20 to actually "arc him just right". The -5 (or about) to hit the rat, I'd keep rather than the -2, again me and trying to hit a target while I'm in an arc over him. The land DC seems fine. Very cinematic, I can imagine this being shot in slow-motion, but hey, if there was enough head room, and the players had fun, who am I to argue? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 6] Author : Ith Date : 04-13-09 01:09 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? This is exactly what I love about roleplaying in general, and I think 4e does a good job of making this kind of shenanigan possible. Your ruling seems perfectly reasonable. Reminds me of one of my first 3e games which resulted in the classic (and often repeated even today) quote, "you crit me with a halfling??" Good ruling, and be happy that you have players willing to try cool cinematic stunts like this. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 7] Author : Kylarus Date : 04-13-09 02:03 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? *slow clap* I love it! My players have yet to throw this at me, but they're running par with it so far and might just try it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 8] Author : EvilVegan Date : 04-13-09 02:13 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? DC 10 for throwing the elf seems a little low, 15 maybe would be my first thought or even closer to 20 to actually "arc him just right". The -5 (or about) to hit the rat, I'd keep rather than the -2, again me and trying to hit a target while I'm in an arc over him. The land DC seems fine. Very cinematic, I can imagine this being shot in slow-motion, but hey, if there was enough head room, and the players had fun, who am I to argue?But you'd get +2 for combat advantage and at least +1 for higher ground. I too felt the DC for throwing the elf was a bit low, as chucking 100+ pounds straight out is a bit much. But the problem is that its being described wrong. I'd treat it as a mini skill challenge as well though, athletics check by the dwarf to set up the elf for a fantastic jump, not an actual dead toss. A dead toss would be DC 25 at least to clear 5 feet. Seriously, grab a bag of dog food and try to throw it over someone at least in a 15 foot long, 7 foot high parabola. And thats probably 20 pounds. But a DC 10 athletics check to give the elf a good jumping platform is a completely understandable thing. The dwarf would just interlink his hands and pull up as the elf made his acrobatics check. Standard Action for dwarf to ready the toss. Move Action for elf to get "running start". I would count it as the dwarf granting the elf a running start and getting him a few extra feet of height. Technically it would just be an "Aid Another" check. But that's not nearly cool enough and would only grant a +2 bonus. How about you add the dwarf's Athletics check to the elf's Acrobatics check? If that clears the monster then congratulations. Also, if the dwarf is using his standard action just to reposition the elf rather than just punching the guy in the face, then I don't see how it could be over powered. The elf in most circumstances should be able to walk slowly around the guy anyway. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 9] Author : Propane Date : 04-13-09 02:19 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? The Wererat would get an opportunity attack, but it seems possible if the dwarf passes his athletics check to hurl the elf. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 10] Author : DragonsWrath Date : 04-13-09 02:23 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? How about you add the dwarf's Athletics check to the elf's Acrobatics check? If that clears the monster then congratulations. That's basically what I was thinking. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 11] Author : RedRider Date : 04-13-09 02:37 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? If this is okay for the tone of your game, you could maybe ask your PCs to both use up an encounter/daily power to be able to pull it off with minimal rolling. If you're comfortable with game design you could allow one of the players to formulate the manuver into some kind of power, reducing the cost for using it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 12] Author : benichov Date : 04-13-09 02:48 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? The Wererat would get an opportunity attack, but it seems possible if the dwarf passes his athletics check to hurl the elf. Ah. I was thinking the wererat wouldn't get an opportunity attack, because the elf would be to high over his head? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 13] Author : TrothgardtheMad Date : 04-13-09 03:00 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? But you'd get +2 for combat advantage and at least +1 for higher ground. I too felt the DC for throwing the elf was a bit low, as chucking 100+ pounds straight out is a bit much. But the problem is that its being described wrong. I'd treat it as a mini skill challenge as well though, athletics check by the dwarf to set up the elf for a fantastic jump, not an actual dead toss. A dead toss would be DC 25 at least to clear 5 feet. Seriously, grab a bag of dog food and try to throw it over someone at least in a 15 foot long, 7 foot high parabola. And thats probably 20 pounds. But a DC 10 athletics check to give the elf a good jumping platform is a completely understandable thing. The dwarf would just interlink his hands and pull up as the elf made his acrobatics check. Standard Action for dwarf to ready the toss. Move Action for elf to get "running start". I would count it as the dwarf granting the elf a running start and getting him a few extra feet of height. Technically it would just be an "Aid Another" check. But that's not nearly cool enough and would only grant a +2 bonus. How about you add the dwarf's Athletics check to the elf's Acrobatics check? If that clears the monster then congratulations. Also, if the dwarf is using his standard action just to reposition the elf rather than just punching the guy in the face, then I don't see how it could be over powered. The elf in most circumstances should be able to walk slowly around the guy anyway. I think the mini skill check would prolly be a better way to handle it, true. Again, it was creative, cinematic, and such, if I were making skill checks that's the way I'd roll with it, the higher ground thing could gather a +1 (making the penalty -4) but I don't know if I would go with +2 to combat advantage, but hey, whatever floats your proverbial DM boat. I'm more thinking the firing an arrow while flying over an object and trying to not face plant the dirt on the other side. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 14] Author : EvilVegan Date : 04-13-09 03:05 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? If this is okay for the tone of your game, you could maybe ask your PCs to both use up an encounter/daily power to be able to pull it off with minimal rolling. If you're comfortable with game design you could allow one of the players to formulate the manuver into some kind of power, reducing the cost for using it. Its equivalent to one character using a standard action to enable another character to benefit from the rogue "Tumble" ability with a chance of failure. Its definitely not worth an actual encounter if its done as a standard action. A utility maybe. An encounter power would need to deal actual damage. A combo attack would be frikkin sweet though. I mean really, who doesn't love Chrono Trigger's combos? Springtoss Utility Encounter ? Using your ally's momentum and your strength you catapult him over your enemies. Move action Effect: Make an Athletics check. Any time before the start of your next turn you may add the result of this check to one adjacent ally's acrobatics check as an immediate reaction and he treats his jump as if he had a running start. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 15] Author : mplindustries Date : 04-13-09 03:33 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? Wha--? A Fastball Special (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fastball_Special) in D&D? These are not super heroes. This is a normal dwarf throwing a normal elf. The dwarf not super strong. The elf is not aerodynamic. There is no leverage. There is so much wrong with this, most especially how silly it is. And not silly in a fun way. Silly in a sad way. Am I the only one who would laugh at the players and move on? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 16] Author : EvilVegan Date : 04-13-09 03:35 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? I think the mini skill check would prolly be a better way to handle it, true. Again, it was creative, cinematic, and such, if I were making skill checks that's the way I'd roll with it, the higher ground thing could gather a +1 (making the penalty -4) but I don't know if I would go with +2 to combat advantage, but hey, whatever floats your proverbial DM boat. I'm more thinking the firing an arrow while flying over an object and trying to not face plant the dirt on the other side.But that goes counter to 4e's design strategy. You're effectively penalizing them for trying something fun and interesting. Mechanically it's no different from him walking to the other side of the enemy and shooting him, so at the worst it would be null penalty/bonus. Thematically it is awesome or silly, and either way I like it. Move action to walk around (jump over) foe. Standard action to shoot arrow (while in the air). The fact that he wants to fire the arrow in mid-air is not as important as the balance issues. IF firing the arrow in mid-air grants some sort of bonus, then yes it may be a problem. If its just "cool" then I say run with it and give a +1 or +2 bonus for trying something neat. I might even grant a +4 bonus for trying something neat and the dwarf "Aiding Another". Otherwise just treat it as a standard action RBA. Especially if he was perfectly capable of walking around them and just shooting normally. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 17] Author : Darkwolf_Bloodsbane Date : 04-13-09 03:38 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? Wha--? A Fastball Special (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fastball_Special) in D&D? These are not super heroes. This is a normal dwarf throwing a normal elf. The dwarf not super strong. The elf is not aerodynamic. There is no leverage. There is so much wrong with this, most especially how silly it is. And not silly in a fun way. Silly in a sad way. Am I the only one who would laugh at the players and move on? Maybe its because I play with adults...? Maybe it's because you're closeminded. These aren't normal elves and dwarves. They have stats, and they are Heroes, with a capital "H." They do things that normal elves and dwarves would never dream of trying, and they succeed. Because they can. This isn't a childish thing to do, it's a Heroic, Cinematic, and Innovative thing to do. (One of our Drow rogues regularly jumps over enemies to gain CA) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 18] Author : benichov Date : 04-13-09 03:38 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? Wha--? A Fastball Special (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fastball_Special) in D&D? These are not super heroes. This is a normal dwarf throwing a normal elf. The dwarf not super strong. The elf is not aerodynamic. There is no leverage. There is so much wrong with this, most especially how silly it is. And not silly in a fun way. Silly in a sad way. Am I the only one who would laugh at the players and move on? Maybe its because I play with adults...? Um, yes they ARE super heroes. The dwarf has a strength of 20! That's super-human. and The elf is super athletic. These guys wander around dungeons killing icky-nasty creatures - it's kind of what they do :-) There is so much wrong with your attitude, dude. This is a --> game <-- you know? Fun? Ha-ha? Smiling? Shooting-cola-through-nose-fun? I think what is sad is your comment. You play with adults? Do they sit around the table and never smile? How do you have fun? Did you see lord of the rings when the elf was going all over the place on those war elephants? This is why d&d is a fantasy role playing game! :-) Lighten up, man :-) It's a game! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 19] Author : EvilVegan Date : 04-13-09 03:41 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? Wha--? A Fastball Special (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fastball_Special) in D&D? These are not super heroes. This is a normal dwarf throwing a normal elf. The dwarf not super strong. The elf is not aerodynamic. There is no leverage. There is so much wrong with this, most especially how silly it is. And not silly in a fun way. Silly in a sad way. Am I the only one who would laugh at the players and move on? Maybe its because I play with adults...?Condescending as always. Do you go to parties and unplug the stereo too? I mean, they might be listening to music you don't enjoy. I mean, rap is so silly. In a sad way. AMIRITE?! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 20] Author : RedRider Date : 04-13-09 03:52 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? Here's two suggestions: Player 1: We want to pull of some kind of seriously sweet combat manuver together. DM: Okay, it'll cost you both a daily of at least level 1. Player 2: Ouch. Pricey. Player 1: Come on dude! It'll be awesome! For the specific described manuver though: Cooperative Manuver Level 5 Fighter/Ranger/Rogue/Warlord Daily Attack Martial * Weapon, Reliable Melee Reach 2. Siezing the opportunity, a boosted leap, cunning scramble or a pair of clever feints, surprises your enemy as your ally strikes. Strength/Dex/Con vs. Reflex Target: One enemy adjacent to you or your selected ally. Standard Action Prerequisite: You must be trained in Acrobatics or Athletics. Hit: You may slide an ally adjacent to you into a square adjacent to the target. The ally may then perform a basic melee or ranged attack against the target with combat advantage. Special:If your ally is trained in Acrobatics or Athletics, they may slide through the enemy's space without provoking attacks of opportunity. EDIT: Special added, since I'm not sure if doing so would provoke opportunity attacks. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 21] Author : EvilVegan Date : 04-13-09 03:58 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? Here's two suggestions: Player 1: We want to pull of some kind of seriously sweet combat manuver together. DM: Okay, it'll cost you both a daily of at least level 1. Player 2: Ouch. Pricey. Player 1: Come on dude! It'll be awesome! For the specific described manuver though: Cooperative Manuver Level 5 Fighter/Ranger/Rogue/Warlord Daily Attack Martial * Weapon, Reliable Melee Reach 2. Siezing the opportunity, a boosted leap, cunning scramble or a pair of clever feints, surprises your enemy as your ally strikes. Strength/Dex/Con vs. Reflex Target: One enemy adjacent to you or your selected ally. Standard Action Prerequisite: You must be trained in Acrobatics or Athletics. Hit: You may slide an ally adjacent to you into a square adjacent to the target. The ally may then perform a basic melee or ranged attack against the target with combat advantage. Special:If your ally is trained in Acrobatics or Athletics, they may slide through the enemy's space without provoking attacks of opportunity. EDIT: Special added, since I'm not sure if doing so would provoke opportunity attacks.Nice, but too weak for a daily attack. On second thought, isn't there a fighter utility that does exactly what they're trying to do? Get Over Here? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 22] Author : McThorin Date : 04-13-09 04:02 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? This is the kind of cool **** that sets D&D apart from minis games, I absolutely think the game's better if you allow it. And I'm 30+, mplindustries, so maybe you just play with stuffy adults. I just wish there was better guidance for making it work in the 4E system. I would treat the elf as running, which brings a negative to ATK and Def (he's upside down, in the air, there's gotta be a negative in there somewhere, this seems like the reasonable way to do it). But I'd give him CA for the shot (which may mean damage bonuses) and the rat gets no AOs because he's out of reach. Depending on how it played out balance wise (i.e. if this gets overused), I might let the rat hit the dwarf with an OA. But I'd do that as a negative instead of making this eat up encounter powerss or something. I'd let the dwarf do this by readying a minor action, I wouldn't take a standard from him... Does that work in the system? or do you HAVE to take a standard to ready something? If you do, I might make an exception, or look into aiding-an-ally rules. I'd make the Diff on the Ath/Acr checks of 20-30. That seems about right because this is the kind of cool ability that should be hard for low-level characters, but easier for cool paragon and epic tier guys. If you're pulling this off, you're cool, not first-level. If either fails, they couldn't make the shot, and the Elf gives up CA for landing badly. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 23] Author : SYB Date : 04-13-09 04:05 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? I'd make it simpler than any of that. Assuming there is no mechanical benefit (ie. the elf could have simply walked around the rat without provoking OAs), apply no penalties and let them do it without rolling. Why? They are spending two standard actions to do something that would normally cost one (and to look cool while doing it). The extra standard action seems like more than enough penalty to look cool. In fact, in my mind, too much. I'd probably give a mild benefit (I just wouldn't advertise it to the players). If there is an actual mechanical benefit (avoiding OA for example), I'd probably require an athletics check from the dwarf (he is the one using the standard action to throw). Acrobatics has a built in mechanic if the dwarf fails the check that can be used as a backup for the elf. -SYB -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 24] Author : McThorin Date : 04-13-09 04:09 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? I'd make it simpler than any of that. Assuming there is no mechanical benefit (ie. the elf could have simply walked around the rat without provoking OAs), apply no penalties and let them do it without rolling. Why? They are spending two standard actions to do something that would normally cost one (and to look cool while doing it). The extra standard action seems like more than enough penalty to look cool. In fact, in my mind, too much. I'd probably give a mild benefit (I just wouldn't advertise it to the players). If there is an actual mechanical benefit (avoiding OA for example), I'd probably require an athletics check from the dwarf (he is the one using the standard action to throw). Acrobatics has a built in mechanic if the dwarf fails the check that can be used as a backup for the elf. -SYB If there's no mechanical pro and con, then i don't REALLY feel like the players are doing something cool, they're just doing something normal that sounds cool, Which to me (and my group I'm sure) would feel kind of hollow. If a player has a plan, i want it to be reflected in the mechanics. When it isn't, I know from experience that my players stop making plans and start just playing their powers strategically. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 25] Author : Guivre Date : 04-13-09 04:09 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? First rule no Negatives. That's not a rule. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 26] Author : Guivre Date : 04-13-09 04:12 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? Wha--? A Fastball Special (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fastball_Special) in D&D? These are not super heroes. This is a normal dwarf throwing a normal elf. The dwarf not super strong. The elf is not aerodynamic. There is no leverage. There is so much wrong with this, most especially how silly it is. And not silly in a fun way. Silly in a sad way. Am I the only one who would laugh at the players and move on? I would laugh at them, but then my players would only offer it as a joke so we'd all be laughing. The OP is free to play his game how he likes. In my game I'd rule it as "absolutely not". If I were to allow something that silly I would make it harder at least. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 27] Author : Herrozerro Date : 04-13-09 04:15 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? Personally I wish my group was more into stunting even if it was just flavor even. For the example of moving around without drawing OAs I would let the player flavor it that he was running and using the dwarf as a stepping stone to jump over the enemy. If there was a mechanical obstical such as a line of enemies i would treat it as an acrobatic stunt with the dwarf "assisting" with the check tossing in his possible +2 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 28] Author : jkb619 Date : 04-13-09 04:16 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? My take (may have been repeated earlier...I skimmed :) ) 1) never say no! hey, I think we've all seen LotR enough to love the Legolas 'over the top' X-games style combat. 2) Elf Acrobatics as 'main skill'. Honestly, the dwarf doesnt even have to assist. If elf wants to scurry up the dwarfs back and launch off the dwarf's shoulders...cool 3) if the dwarf wants to assist, let him make his athletics check vs. DC 10/15 to give a +2 to elf's acrobatics check. net result: personally, i'd give a +4 the first time, +2 for the times after that. The first time bonus +2 is a reward for creativity. The remaining +2 is no different that using bluff to gain combat advantage. Obviously, this tactic would only give bonuses once per encounter. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 29] Author : Herrozerro Date : 04-13-09 04:17 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? By acrobatic stunt i would use the acrobatics check from the PHB dc 10+level of the monster and you would also draw OAs -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 30] Author : x3nth10n Date : 04-13-09 04:25 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? I'm in full support of this maneuver. This is some of the types of things that are most fun in a table-top game. When I DM, I fully encourage my players to come up with awesome maneuvers to enhance the cinematic flavor, and try to encourage both athletics and acrobatics in combat; I think they are both very uninteresting for mundane use, or at least don't come up all that often. I think that a -2 penalty to the attack roll is fine, though you could just say that the dwarf is "Aiding another", and the elf has CA, and give him a small bonus for "badass points". You could always just impose it if they fail the first athletics check (bad toss). In fact, I think that's how I'd do it. One thing about these kinds of maneuvers: One time is awesome, twice is kinda "meh", and more than that it just becomes boring. Not to say that they should be banned from this maneuver, but don't let this specific one become a staple. If they try it a lot, put in some enemies that can deal with it, and some that can't. Encourage innovation, it makes the game fun. It can be equally cinematic to have the enemies be competent enough to deal with them though if they make it a habit. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 31] Author : Hazard84 Date : 04-13-09 04:31 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? Isn´t this a situation were an assist is appropiate? The Dwarf gets in position and readies a trigger "assist Acrobatics/Athlectics when Elf is adjacent". Elfs turn eh runs up to get a running start, triggers the assist and makes either his athletics for jumping over the wererat or possibly an acrobatics check for a stunt (whatever you prefer, I would say athletics for the jump and an acrobatics if he fails and wants to salvage "roll off and get an arrow of") I would kiss my players if they start using stuff like that. Edit: I would offer my players a big bonus for such a stunt. Free Combat advantage, a bonus die of damage or a free instant Standard action. Thats the stuff that is really heroic and should be awarded, especially as the dwarf just gave up his standard action. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 32] Author : Black_Tamanous Date : 04-13-09 04:32 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? Dwarf would make athletics check but at a higher DC to reflect to str feat that it is. The Dwarf would need to make an standard attack action (not move) to do this as he is free targeting the elf to do this. Rat in no way would be in 'awe'. It would leap to attack as it is an opp attack chance (imagine a cat when you throw something over it...they attack it with ease and are not surprised...they are predators). The Elf would either need to make a acrobatics check to avoid the opp attack or suck one up for crossing a adjacent square in order to attack. In high adventure/heroic setting there would be no penalty to attack. In normal setting a -5 and no less. Elf would need to make acrobatics roll to land safely. All in all a high risk and stupid move. It would be safer to simply use acrobatics to move past the rat to other side while the dwarf uses his attack action to attack and keep the rat busy. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 33] Author : Hocus-Smokus Date : 04-13-09 04:35 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? This is truly the essence of pure table-top D&D. It's what seperates it from video games and mini games, where someone else is dictating your every move. Not only would I allow the PCs to try it, I would applaud their effort. I do find it very sad that there are still players/DMs out there that discourage these things at their tables. What do their players do? Attack, miss, attack, hit, run, attack, hit...etc....how boring! No tactics? No over-the-top antics? No creativity? No thanks. I am proud to offer my players the option of being able to do (or at least try to do) crazy stunts and have...gasp...fun! Whether some like to think so or not, that IS the point of a game... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 34] Author : mplindustries Date : 04-13-09 04:41 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? This isn't a childish thing to do, it's a Heroic, Cinematic, and Innovative thing to do. (One of our Drow rogues regularly jumps over enemies to gain CA)See, now jumping over enemies is kind of cool, assuming you have the skill to do it. I have no problem with the mechanics of what was done or how it was treated (except that it may have been a bit too easy to circumvent the normal CA rules). Jumping over an enemy shooting arrows. Neat. Throwing someone over an enemy? No, fail. Um, yes they ARE super heroes. The dwarf has a strength of 20! That's super-human. and The elf is super athletic. These guys wander around dungeons killing icky-nasty creatures - it's kind of what they do :-) 20 Strength is not super human. Its perfectly reasonable for a human. In fact, humans in 4e can end up with 28 Strength. There is so much wrong with your attitude, dude. This is a --> game <-- you know? Fun? Ha-ha? Smiling? Shooting-cola-through-nose-fun?Obviously, I'm an enemy of all fun, and not just someone who thinks the Fastball Special is goofy. I think what is sad is your comment. You play with adults? Do they sit around the table and never smile? How do you have fun? Did you see lord of the rings when the elf was going all over the place on those war elephants? This is why d&d is a fantasy role playing game! :-)!Yes, again, clearly, my definition of adult is "One who hates fun" and not "One who does not find this particular kind of silliness fun." Condescending as always.You love me. ;) Do you go to parties and unplug the stereo too? I mean, they might be listening to music you don't enjoy. I mean, rap is so silly. In a sad way. AMIRITE?!I don't go to parties. For my last birthday, my friends and I did long division for hours. Then we ate a meal supplement paste (without flavor, of course) and went to bed by 8pm. This is the kind of cool **** that sets D&D apart from minis games, I absolutely think the game's better if you allow it. And I'm 30+, mplindustries, so maybe you just play with stuffy adults. What better adults are there than stuffy ones? Obviously, if you actually like fun (and who does, really? losers?), then you like everything ever invented no matter how asinine it is because someone somewhere thinks its fun. I would laugh at them, but then my players would only offer it as a joke so we'd all be laughing. The OP is free to play his game how he likes. In my game I'd rule it as "absolutely not". If I were to allow something that silly I would make it harder at least.What he said. At least I am not alone. If you'd like, you can come over to my place later to watch the entirety of "Empire" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_(1964_film)). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 35] Author : Herrozerro Date : 04-13-09 04:45 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? 20 Strength is not super human. Its perfectly reasonable for a human. In fact, humans in 4e can end up with 28 Strength. When a baseline stat for your average commoner is 8... 20 is a superhuman feat. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 36] Author : benichov Date : 04-13-09 04:47 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? Jumping over an enemy shooting arrows. Neat. Throwing someone over an enemy? No, fail. What is the difference, oh serious one, between jumping over an enemy shooting arrows, and being thrown (or assisted) over an enemy shooting arrows? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 37] Author : Hocus-Smokus Date : 04-13-09 04:47 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? When a baseline stat for your average commoner is 8... 20 is a superhuman feat. I was going to say that, but I thought he was joking...that rascal... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 38] Author : Nightson Date : 04-13-09 04:56 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? 28 STR is godlike levels. Seriously, you're physically as strong as a Death Giant, stronger then an Earth Titan, stronger then Vecna, a god. Calling it human level is silly. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 39] Author : EvilVegan Date : 04-13-09 05:05 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? You love me. ;) More and more each day. :D I don't go to parties. For my last birthday, my friends and I did long division for hours. Then we ate a meal supplement paste (without flavor, of course) and went to bed by 8pm. Don't lie. You don't have friends; you have paste-loving associates and excess paste. On a side note, you may have noticed that I, like you, said it was extremely silly for a dwarf to throw an elf and not a single person called me out as being out of line. It's called tact. Look into it. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 40] Author : Hocus-Smokus Date : 04-13-09 05:13 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? On a side note, you may have noticed that I, like you, said it was extremely silly for a dwarf to throw an elf and not a single person called me out as being out of line. It's called tact. Look into it. Well...you're evil. It's even in your name...it's expected from evil folks. However, if you'd been named GoodVegan, we'd have been on you like a Jenny Craig convention on a donut-truck. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 41] Author : Kiyosa Date : 04-13-09 05:15 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? 4e specifically wants players to try this kinda thing since most people feel its cool and awesome. In fact, the PHB specifically mentions a very similar tactic. Acrobatic Stunt Make an Acrobatics check to swing from a chandelier, somersault over an opponent, slide down a staircase on your shield, or attempt any other acrobatic stunt that you can imagine and that your DM agrees to let you try. The DM sets the DC based on the complexity of the stunt and the danger of the situation. If the stunt fails, you fall prone in the square where you began the stunt (the DM might change where you land, depending on the specific stunt and situation). Your DM always has the right to say that a stunt won’t work in a particular situation or to set a high DC. Acrobatic Stunt: Standard action or move action, depending on the stunt. ✦ DC: Base DC 15. ✦ Success: You perform an acrobatic stunt. ✦ Failure: You fail to pull off the stunt and might fall or suffer some other consequence. There ya go, DC 15 to vault over an enemy, with or without an alley-oop from a dorf. See also: the front and back cover of Martial Power. **** I think EvilVegan has the best rules ideas here. You want to model what is going on using the templates included in the rules, while still letting both characters shine and be important to the action. Balance and game-play wise, this stunt is often not going to be mechanically different than the character taking a shot and then moving into flanking position. It will have a mechanical advantage when it allows movement through enemy spaces or prevents the elf from drawing OAs. Allowing the shot to take place in the air or not is very unlikely to have any mechanical difference and it adds heaps of cool factor, so you should probably let it work. Several rules to base this on: * Aid Another (PHB 287): Just having the dwarf count as using "Aid Another." Uses a standard action just to get a +2? This really trivializes the dwarf's part and costs him a ton. I'd say it's a bad idea. * Acrobatic Stunt (PHB 180, above): Good start, calls for a DC 15 check. * Jump, Vertical or Horizontal (PHB 182-183): This doesn't fit the model for pure vertical or horizontal really. But the basic rules are: Check Result/10 for feet cleared without a running start, Check Result/5 with a "running start" of 2 squares of movement. In both cases deduct the distance jumped from the character's available movement. Assuming a medium opponent, and based on all the above what I'd do to maintain fun, keep both player's actions relevant, keep the maneuver non-trivial and retain balance is: Start: Dwarf makes a DC 10 "Aid Another" Athletics check as a move action. This allows the elf to count as having a "running start" of two squares, I'd throw in the +2 bonus for the elf as well (you could delete it). Dwarf succeeds?: Elf makes a DC 15 Acrobatics check as a move action. You'd need a DC 10 to clear the vertical or horizontal separately, I'd combine this to 15 since it's not twice as hard to do both at once and since 15 is the recommended base DC in the PHB. You could make this a DC 20, but I wouldn't. Dwarf fails?: Elf makes a DC 25 acrobatics check as a move action, or 15 still if there was a two square "running start." Elf succeeds?: makes the check s/he is on the opposite side of the monster from the dwarf and has made the maneuver, I'd also allow movement into any of the squares that are 2 away from the dwarf if they wanted that. Elf fails?: Prone to a square of elf's choice adjacent to the dwarf. As for an OA from the opponent? I'd allow the opponent to make it if the characte4rs are getting a mechanical advantage out of the rolls, the PHB's acrobatic stunt bit doesn't mention it disappearing. I'd delete the OA if the elf could have just moved around without these shenanigans and explain that the opponent was shocked at this weird and unneeded flashiness (no need to punish the player if they could have kept it easy but non cinematic). I'd also delete the OA if the Elf managed to beat the above DC's by 5+ with a "running start" or 10+ without it. This allows the maneuver to be possible, but a little risky in low heroic and pretty much a sure thing by high heroic, it also keeps both player's actions relevant, although the dwarf really isn't doing a whole lot (especially if the elf takes an actual running start). The elf could technically do this whackiness solo pretty reliably in high heroic. **** As for the "this is silly and fun" versus "this is silly and stupid" debate- I'm with mplindustries here, but I realize I'm in the minority. As a DM I'd generally allow this kinda thing because most players will eat it up. Personally, I'm the dude who was having a fantastic immersive experience in the LotR movies at Helm's Deep until Legolas starting surfing down stairs on a shield going pew-pew-pew with arrows and Aragon tossed Gimli to the gate (because throwing a guy further than he can jump makes sense, right?). Both events totally snapped my disbelief and I was suddenly a guy in a movie theater not a guy in a desperate fight for his life. The worst part is that both of these ridiculous stunts broke the heart-pounding, fatalistic mood of the entire scene. For me things went from white-knuckle, against-all-odds cinema to low budget, Hong Kong kung-fu shoot-em-up in a hurry. Now there is nothing wrong with Shanghai Noon or Errol Flynn's The Adventure's of Robin Hood but you don't mix and match their fight choreography with Conan the Barbarian or Highlander. I just generally prefer the latter as the feel of my D&D games. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 42] Author : EvilVegan Date : 04-13-09 05:24 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? Both events totally snapped my disbelief and I was suddenly a guy in a movie theater not a guy in a desperate fight for his life. The worst part is that both of these ridiculous stunts broke the heart-pounding, fatalistic mood of the entire scene. For me things went from white-knuckle, against-all-odds cinema to low budget, Hong Kong kung-fu shoot-em-up in a hurry. Now there is nothing wrong with Shanghai Noon or Errol Flynn's The Adventure's of Robin Hood but you don't mix and match their fight choreography with Conan the Barbarian or Highlander. I just generally prefer the latter as the feel of my D&D games. I almost vomit when I see Legolas flip around the horse in the worg fight. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 43] Author : McThorin Date : 04-13-09 05:31 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? As for the "this is silly and fun" versus "this is silly and stupid" debate- I'm with mplindustries here, but I realize I'm in the minority. As a DM I'd generally allow this kinda thing because most players will eat it up. Personally, I'm the dude who was having a fantastic immersive experience in the LotR movies at Helm's Deep until Legolas starting surfing down stairs on a shield going pew-pew-pew with arrows and Aragon tossed Gimli to the gate (because throwing a guy further than he can jump makes sense, right?). Both events totally snapped my disbelief and I was suddenly a guy in a movie theater not a guy in a desperate fight for his life. The worst part is that both of these ridiculous stunts broke the heart-pounding, fatalistic mood of the entire scene. For me things went from white-knuckle, against-all-odds cinema to low budget, Hong Kong kung-fu shoot-em-up in a hurry. Now there is nothing wrong with Shanghai Noon or Errol Flynn's The Adventure's of Robin Hood but you don't mix and match their fight choreography with Conan the Barbarian or Highlander. I just generally prefer the latter as the feel of my D&D games. I'd say letting a highly acrobatic ally jump over someone is an order of magnitude less cheesy than the shield sled, dwarf toss, or hamstringing-oliphants-with-knives scenes in LotR. Those, yes, destroyed my disbelief. Simply using a hand to somersault over someone doesn't seem nearly as ridiculous to me. And the diving shot doesn't seem so bad either. Athletes make diving catches all the time, after all. QBs will throw passes while being HAMMERED by linemen... that aspect doesn't seem that unreasonable to me once he's got some hangtime. Hell, look at the acrobatics they pulloff in Slam Dunk competitions. Comparing it to those, the core of this stunt seems completely possible in the real world, just very difficult. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 44] Author : mplindustries Date : 04-13-09 05:33 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? When a baseline stat for your average commoner is 8... 20 is a superhuman feat.No, its a +30% to your chance to hit with strength powers, +6 damage, and the ability to consistently jump 3 feet further. In fact, if 20 Strength at level 1 is super human, that means commoners cannot do it, correct? So in order to throw somebody, which has been argued to be super human, you would need to hit a DC that commoners could not get. It would be DC: 25 minimum, then, since a commoner with 8 strength trained in Athletics can potentially roll upwards of 24 on his check. In fact, you'd have to do DC: 28 because a commoner could have taken skill focus. Then you need to take into account the fact that 8 is just the average, so it'd have to be 29-30 to cover all the normal people not being able to do it. Ok, so the point is, Attributes are abstractions. 20 is no more superhuman than 10. You get a bonus to specific rolls through attributes, they dictate nothing else about your character unless you want them to. So, "My dwarf has a 20 Strength" means nothing to the idea of throwing someone beyond a +5 to the check to do so. What is the difference, oh serious one, between jumping over an enemy shooting arrows, and being thrown (or assisted) over an enemy shooting arrows?Being assisted would again, be much better. Actually throwing someone is the stupid part. 28 STR is godlike levels. Seriously, you're physically as strong as a Death Giant, stronger then an Earth Titan, stronger then Vecna, a god. Calling it human level is silly.And this is an argument that the Strength attribute is a good way to measure human/superhuman standards? Don't lie. You don't have friends; you have paste-loving associates and excess paste.One definition for "friend" is "a person who is on good terms with another; a person who is not hostile." I believe this description to be applicable to said paste-loving associates. It's called tact. Look into it.I have long been told that my lack of respect for Social Contract would get me into trouble, and so far...no, they've been completely wrong. Personally, I'm the dude who was having a fantastic immersive experience in the LotR movies at Helm's Deep until Legolas starting surfing down stairs on a shield going pew-pew-pew with arrows and Aragon tossed Gimli to the gate (because throwing a guy further than he can jump makes sense, right?).It is the juxtaposition of themes that causes discomfort. Oddly, I like extreme juxtapositions. What I want, though, is internal consistency applied to them. This is where scenes like that fail for me. Why does this work? Some physics are ignored by 4e, but not all of them, right? If a dwarf can throw an elf over the heads of monsters, why can't he wield a giant's sword, too? Its clear he doesn't need to worry about leverage. The dwarf can throw my elf over the monster. So, how come when the dwarf tries to throw the elf over a wall, he can only give him a +2 to the skill check ala aid another? Can anyone throw anyone else? Can the elf throw the dwarf? Can a halfling throw the elf? The Dwarf had 20 strength. Is 18 enough to throw? 16? Where is the cut off point? If 16 is enough, but 14 is not, how come? What if the guy with 14 strength rolls one point higher than the 16 strength guy? At this point, everyone might as well get a new basic at-will power: "Throw Person." Before it comes up, I love kung-fu movies because they have their own rules and they are internally consistent. Oh, and on top of all that, this particular trope has never been aesthetically pleasing to me in any setting. I groan every time someone throws Wolverine at a Sentinel, just as I am groaning now. Of course, I groan whenever Wolverine gets more screen time than all the vastly more interesting characters, so I might be biased. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 45] Author : Herrozerro Date : 04-13-09 05:41 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? No, its a +30% to your chance to hit with strength powers, +6 damage, and the ability to consistently jump 3 feet further. In fact, if 20 Strength at level 1 is super human, that means commoners cannot do it, correct? So in order to throw somebody, which has been argued to be super human, you would need to hit a DC that commoners could not get. It would be DC: 25 minimum, then, since a commoner with 8 strength trained in Athletics can potentially roll upwards of 24 on his check. In fact, you'd have to do DC: 28 because a commoner could have taken skill focus. Then you need to take into account the fact that 8 is just the average, so it'd have to be 29-30 to cover all the normal people not being able to do it. Ok, so the point is, Attributes are abstractions. 20 is no more superhuman than 10. You get a bonus to specific rolls through attributes, they dictate nothing else about your character unless you want them to. So, "My dwarf has a 20 Strength" means nothing to the idea of throwing someone beyond a +5 to the check to do so. "Multiply your Strength score by 10. That’s the weight, in pounds, that you can carry around without penalty. This amount of weight is considered a normal load. Double that number (Strength × 20). That’s the maximum weight you can lift off the ground. If you try to carry that weight, though, you’re slowed. Carrying such a load requires both hands, so you’re not particularly effective while you’re doing so. This amount of weight is considered a heavy load. Five times your normal load (Strength × 50) is the most weight you can push or drag along the ground. You’re slowed if you try to push or drag more weight than you can carry without penalty, and you can’t push or drag such a heavy load over difficult terrain. This amount of weight is referred to as your maximum drag load." Very real uses of attribute for physical limitations -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 46] Author : McThorin Date : 04-13-09 05:45 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? "Multiply your Strength score by 10. That’s the weight, in pounds, that you can carry around without penalty. This amount of weight is considered a normal load. Double that number (Strength × 20). That’s the maximum weight you can lift off the ground. If you try to carry that weight, though, you’re slowed. Carrying such a load requires both hands, so you’re not particularly effective while you’re doing so. This amount of weight is considered a heavy load. Five times your normal load (Strength × 50) is the most weight you can push or drag along the ground. You’re slowed if you try to push or drag more weight than you can carry without penalty, and you can’t push or drag such a heavy load over difficult terrain. This amount of weight is referred to as your maximum drag load." Very real uses of attribute for physical limitations Now if only they'd closed the loop and included the figure for the max weight you could throw any kind of distance, we wouldn't be having this argument. Although by these figures, I think I once had a 19 strength... Looks like the heaviest Olympic lift ever recorded was a 581 pounds, which means the strongest real human had a strength stat of about 29... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 47] Author : Herrozerro Date : 04-13-09 05:49 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? Now if only they'd closed the loop and included the figure for the max weight you could throw any kind of distance, we wouldn't be having this argument. Although by these figures, I think I once had a 19 strength... But the point is that the Strength attribute isn't just an abstraction. Its is used in a very real way to determine how strong your character is. I would agree that you would have to set the DC so a commoner could'nt do it but if a commoner is so common would he even be trained in anything? Being Trained seems to be a Hero Feat. So if you took a commoner with base 8 stats the highest he could roll would be 19 on any skill check conditional modifiers not withstanding. a 20 dc isn't uncommon for adventurers -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 48] Author : KorgothThePrist Date : 04-13-09 06:24 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? Anyone who has played d&d for more than 45 minutes will understand this. 2 PC's - both 5th level. The fighter in my group wants to throw the elven archer high above the monster (wererat). The idea is, as the elf is flying above the wererat, he shoots a couple of arrows at it, and lands on his feet on the opposite side of the wererat. The PC's, then, have surrounded the wererat and they look bad-ass. ** sigh** Here's my take. 1. the elven archer sets up a trigger: when I am in the air, I will shoot arrows at the wererat. 2. on the dwarf's turn, he throws the elf. he roles a DC 10 vs athletics 3. as the elf is sailing through the air, he shoots at the monster. I am giving him a -5 to hit, but I'm reducing that to -2 to hit because the wererat is looking at the elf with his mouth wide open saying "oh, what the hell is THIS?" 4. the elf then needs to roll DC 20 vs acrobatics to land safely. Seem about right? In AD&D I can see why people wanted to do that and crap becouse the rule system was kinda crap... OK it was a fun system still (I think better then 3E) but hey w/e 1) The Elf and the Fighter (Dwarf) Need to prepare actions to do this at the same time Thus giving the Wererat some time to do whatever the hell you want him to do. 2) The Fighter needs to make sure he can LIFT the wight of the elf. Sure there skinny and all but the fighter is carrying other gear and so is the elf. You know the lift wight capability if its heavy or even More Then Just say they fail horribly. I Mean if your str is 18 in 4E that means 180 Light heavy is 360 right? Ok the dwarf is carrying plate shield sword kit + all this other junk so is the Elf So lets say the elf is only 90 lbs ... so 90+ All the stuff the dwarf is carrying + All the wight the elf is carrying dos this go above the 360 lbs? If Yes Skip to the part where they just wasted a round or two and both now have to make a save agest being knocked prone (In this case the Dwarf makes 2 sence he has a special rule of not being knock prone and if he makes one hes good) 3) LETS Say all that above works just fine. And your players still continue to want to be dumbass's or such. Ok NEXT the dwarf has to make a good Str check to see how great he tossed the elf. Which could result in a fail as well. I Would say the DC is based on level and such at level 5 the DC is probly in the 20's easyoly he only gets to add +4 to his dice result. and i would allow to take 10 but that would fail as we know. 4) The Elf has to make sure he makes a balance check / Acrobatis check to make sure he can turn around and do all that ****. If this fails as well WELL Then he just isnt able to turn fast enough to do this **** and if they pull up legolise or something from a movie state there level 40 characters fighting minions. Becouse they are level 40 characters fighting ... Minions ... And that its Hollywood They do **** like that all the time. 5) The Elf needs to land on his feet. Or risk being knocked prone. Another Save / Skill check both need to be made as well. 6) The dwarf cant have other **** in his hands like a shield or sword they have to be droped or something like that. And if he has spiked gauntlets then make him make an attack roll vs the elf with a +5 bonus becouse the elf wants to go into his hands or arms and such. 7) If your players dont beleve these rules state these are the rules in 4E at least in 3E you can just substute this kind of **** if you cant find the right rules. 8) Yes it should just auto fail and you should say ok you 2 waste a round and it fails and have the wererat do its **** for a round and go "Ok now what?" but they could rule certain things (Like we can help jump over a wall right?) in which case give them a hard DC to do all these things in combination + the fact there in combat. Im sure the wererat can just go "Push" and touch the guy and make the elf fail that way. 9) maybe Falling damage (Minor like 1d10 for the 10ft drop) as well as all the checks is inflicked on the elf? 10) They have to make each check or wait another round. And argue while there trying to do this **** the wererat is doing even more crap like moving around and ****. 11) If the wererat is within range there pretty much both get provoked from the rat trying to stop them from doing this ****. 12) Allso keep the -5 to hit When hes in the air and such. Impossible? Perhaps but then again at later levels you can just ****en fly or ****. That and they can make it with good enough checks and rolls and such! ITS NOT IMPOSSIBLE! Ok it probly is but hey let them **** up like this and teach them a lesson. Yes ive played sence AD&D and i think to many DMS are to nice ... but i do agree some are to Mean / hard on there characters. but in this example elf takes 1d10 Damage + Provides a Opertunity attack as hes moving into the arms of the dwarf. And vs the dwarf oh and the dwarf has at least 2 less AC becouse of no shield but you can declare that the elf is provideing him with a bonus So this negates itself. Theres rules in 4E of Skill checks depending on level If you declare this as an easy thing to do then its a low DC Like the 20 your talking about If its a medium type of thing then a higher DC IF its a hard / impossible thing to do while in combat or such then a HIGH DC like something they might not be able to make and such even if they rolled a nat 20. You can allso declare a skill challange to be taken place if you want If running 4E in adistion to all the checks above. They wanna look bad ass then lets see them beat these differcultys! That and if i was the wererat i'll be like "Dumbass Provoke attack from me will you!" and try to get a nat 20 in there on to hitting and such vs well both of them At least try. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 49] Author : mplindustries Date : 04-13-09 06:31 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? But the point is that the Strength attribute isn't just an abstraction. Its is used in a very real way to determine how strong your character is.No, it isn't, because weight is an abstraction, too. Its as much based on bulk and awkwardness as it is on mass. And besides that, as others have shown, real people can lift and carry more than that. Its all gamist abstraction. Its designed to balance, not to simulate. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 50] Author : Herrozerro Date : 04-13-09 06:36 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? No, it isn't, because weight is an abstraction, too. Its as much based on bulk and awkwardness as it is on mass. And besides that, as others have shown, real people can lift and carry more than that. Its all gamist abstraction. Its designed to balance, not to simulate. Well then alright by your standards i guess all the numbers dont matter about anything. why do you even play a game with numbers in it? I believe that being able to remain agile to the point it does not encumber you at all while carrying 200lbs is quite a feat. It may not be a perfect system but "Im stronger so i can carry more" is not an abstraction. what is stopping a wizard with 8 strength from carrying more then 80lbs with him in an unencumbered fashion? His stats. A fighter with 20 str can carry 120lbs more before he even breaks a sweat and that is a feat of strength that he can run around without a penalty to speed or combat. ~EDIT~ A fighter with a 20 strength is more then twice as strong as a wizard with 8. That does not mean that a wizard could pull off an amazazing feat if he rolled high, it means that a fighter will always have an easier time with the physical side of things. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 51] Author : McThorin Date : 04-13-09 06:45 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? No, it isn't, because weight is an abstraction, too. Its as much based on bulk and awkwardness as it is on mass. And besides that, as others have shown, real people can lift and carry more than that. Its all gamist abstraction. Its designed to balance, not to simulate. I think the numbers support letting players try this. It's not as patently absurd as some are making it out. Heck, if I had the time, i bet I could find some YouTube video of Chinese acrobats flying around bigger distanced than we're considering here. The challenge is just trying to figure out the best fun and balanced way to portray this in the rules, and I for one think there should be penalties and bonuses associated with it, because that's more fun and fulfilling than just doing it with description. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 52] Author : KorgothThePrist Date : 04-13-09 06:55 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? But the point is that the Strength attribute isn't just an abstraction. Its is used in a very real way to determine how strong your character is. I would agree that you would have to set the DC so a commoner could'nt do it but if a commoner is so common would he even be trained in anything? Being Trained seems to be a Hero Feat. So if you took a commoner with base 8 stats the highest he could roll would be 19 on any skill check conditional modifiers not withstanding. a 20 dc isn't uncommon for adventurers Commeners are trained in certain skills mostly skill that pertake in there jobs. A BLACK Smith is going to have skills to well help him blacksmith right? Hes going to have higher then adverage Strength. But may not be as intelligent or such as the others (Meaning adverage intelligence) The Adverage Rule of state (10/11) Is over all NO ONE IS ADVERAGE! Is the thing people forget. Thus people do have stats just not very good For Example hear is some random stats for differnt commenors. (For Humans) With reasons why there stat is as it is Black Smith "Smithy" Str 17 This guy works with a hammer and such EVEY DAMN WORKING DAY Do you work 10 hours a day 6-7 days a week with a hammer each damn day and constently working by a hot forge and such? No I dont think so. Dex 11 this guy dosnt bother doing anything that might test his dexterity he works all damn day at the forge pretty much and is to tierd to do other ****. but he dos have enough to make him move around just fine. Con 14 Lets face it he works all day long and is tierd hes allways hammering away as well He has endurance to work the 10 hours a day not sitting at a desk and constently working at the forge. Int 10 he may not study books all the time but he knows enough to get him by he had the norm adverage grades getting B and C passing some class's with A's and failing others with D or maybe an F becouse of his Short temper. Wis 14 He has alot of time working on his work and at times he wounders about the more important things about life and watches other people behaver as they pass by his tent all day and he knows what the hell he is talking about when it comes to anything that passes by his blacksmith shop Cha 6 He is allways working hard and as such is tierd becouse of this hes a bit short on people. He dosnt bother to bath himself that much becouse he figures hes allways going to get dirty again alot the next day and cleaning himself and his cloathing would be even more work on him. And to many kids work on them damn books and complain about things to much for this guy as well. As such most people dont like to hang out with this guy that much. Even though he is a nice looking dude and besides the smell / dirt grease and the short on temper at times hes a nice looking guy. besides he likes his Beer and food It helps the day go by more smoothly. Bob The Town Healer. (Human again) Str 11 He dosnt realy push things around or such but he dos go over to each patient to work on them he isnt a slacker at all means but he dosnt work out that much eather. He has adverage strength. Dex 14 Lets face it you need hand eye cordention to work on people at times. He may not be able to balance on a beam or another but hes got a steedy hand THAT much is for sure. Sure he dosnt do well on that monkey bars but his steedy hand requires much more dexterity and perception then you know. Int 10 He dosnt have the greatest "Book Smart" About such but he knows the norm. Wis 17 Hes the Doctor that knows whats what in your body and knows that plant with torns and red tissue might look harmful but provides a great deal of pain killers. And he knows that beating red thing isnt your heart but is still just as vital. and he knows that you HAVE to work with a certain bit of stringe at times and not that other bits of string. Cha 10 Hes a doctor he dosnt want to see people get hurt or such and dosnt like to drink beer much and such becouse hes seen what it can do to people. As such hes not the guy to buy a round of beer at the inn and he worries and sometimes seems like the "Geek" of the group Hears just 2 examples of Commenors they EXCEL at the work they do. But thats pretty much it. Bob may have great Stats to be a cleric but he isnt one exactly Why? Becouse he probly never studyed it and he dosnt feel a great need to go off adventureing around to place to place. sureh e might wounder what such a place feels but he feels at peace with him home and life style enough not to keep moving around all the time. They would have a skill (Trained in 4E) in stuff that involves there work like Bob Is going to have perception to look for thouse little thingsi n your body when you been cut open by a sword to make sure he dosnt kill you while hes patching you up. Intelligence in the world of D&D Is more about Book smart like the History teacher or the MATH teacher or the wizard or alcimist and such. Sure Bob may deal with Alcimy and use it in his work but he dosnt know how you made that Alcimy he just knows that the label marked "Posion" Is a bad bottol to give to your customers. As Such commenors do have Stats just if you take a 1000 Commenors or more there stats would adverage out to be 10-11 Thus is the reason "Adverage" stat is there. Bob and Smithy could become adventures but they dont have the need to go off and do such things as such they are Commenors. Adventures use to be Commenors that worked something or was trained or whatever in there background. But they wanted to go and help the "Bigger" Picture more then the next guy enough so that they became adventures. I Mean i can go over with my 2 good buddies (We call our selfs the 3amigos coz we hang out all the time) and im sure they can lift each other and toss each other over a fence and such. Just like the whererat encounter of course the fence isnt trying to kill them and such. And for the whole Check in 4E each DC challange is based on level and such. DC 20 is the Low/Mid challange for an encounter for level 5 characters. And in the challange of the whole i shall use a lamp to fling myself down the way and on the other side of the monster. Well first of all your away from the monster and he was sneaking up the damn monster didnt know he was there (Bonus!) second of all nothing is threating him to do this. thirdly hes not in combat or such and isnt being presserd. So The DC to do this should be High with multibol steps to it. Just check the DC for level differculty in the DMG i beleve and make them make a test for each. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 53] Author : bigdaddygamebot Date : 04-13-09 07:20 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? Never discourage your players from being creative. Strength check for fighter. Acrobatics check for the ranger. Throwing the ranger draws an attack of opportunity from any monsters next to the dwarf. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 54] Author : Maxperson Date : 04-13-09 07:21 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? This is exactly what I love about roleplaying in general, and I think 4e does a good job of making this kind of shenanigan possible. Your ruling seems perfectly reasonable. Reminds me of one of my first 3e games which resulted in the classic (and often repeated even today) quote, "you crit me with a halfling??" Good ruling, and be happy that you have players willing to try cool cinematic stunts like this. See, I'd allow it with some difficulty with a halfling. But an elf?!?!? The fighter can probably throw the elf 1 foot up and 3 or 4 feet forward, and not with any kind of stability to fire the bow. The DC I would assign would be very high, not something as low as 15 or 20. It's a funny move, but utterly impracticle and virtually impossible to achieve at level 5. It's something that paragon MIGHT be able to do, and epic definately. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 55] Author : Kiyosa Date : 04-13-09 07:50 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? The challenge is just trying to figure out the best fun and balanced way to portray this in the rules, and I for one think there should be penalties and bonuses associated with it, because that's more fun and fulfilling than just doing it with description. Exactly. You need to create a house-rule that is going to make this a fun and interesting tactical option, it can't give away too much and it can't keep too much back. If you let this trick get pulled off too easily or give too many mechanical advantages, you'll end up repeating it over and over until it's totally stale. Your characters are going to be going boing-boing-boing around the battle field whenever they want easy CA or to avoid an OA if you let that happen just by adding a DC 15 check on your move. Pretty soon the combat is going to feel like a bunny-hopping gun fight in Quake. Two nearby balance examples: Bluff to gain Combat Advantage: Bluff vs. Insight as a standard action, and you get CA until the end of your next turn. So, CA is worth giving up an entire standard action here. So we shouldn't give away more than this with Athletics or Acrobatics, especially since those skills also have other combat applications Bull Rush to get past choke points: If an enemy is blocking a doorway, you can do STR vs. Fort as a standard action to muscle your way in and open the choke point. Just worming past an opponent with a single person isn't worth quite as much... but we don't want to make Athletics or Intimidate or Bluff do close to this much. The fighter can probably throw the elf 1 foot up and 3 or 4 feet forward, and not with any kind of stability to fire the bow. The DC I would assign would be very high, not something as low as 15 or 20. It's a funny move, but utterly impracticle and virtually impossible to achieve at level 5. It's something that paragon MIGHT be able to do, and epic definately. I don't think anyone is taking this to mean that the Dwarf can just grab a stationary elf and caber toss it in a 10 foot rainbow arch over a wererat. I'm pretty sure we'll all imagining the dwarf linking his fingers under the elf's heel to add some force to the elf's vault or something similar to that. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 56] Author : GreatHackster Date : 04-13-09 07:57 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? I've read this entire thread, and please forgive me if I've missed this acknowledgment in others' posts. However, from what it seems, the main problem with this seems to be the idea that the dwarf can physically throw the elf the entire distance up and over, all on his own strength. But the whole point of giving someone a leg up, aside from raising the starting point of the jump a few feet off the ground, is that you're both adding your power to the jump. The way the OP set up the rules check, the dwarf is simply tossing the elf, which doesn't make much sense, true. However, what I immediately thought of when he described the stunt was the elf running forward onto the dwarf's cupped hands, stepping up into them with one leg and then leaping off them at the same time as the dwarf thrusts his hands upward. Which is amazingly hard to time right (lots of bruised fingers and high speed collisions, believe me), but when you do it allows you to clear a far greater height than possible on your own. So in my opinion, a successful Athletics check by the dwarf would result in a bonus (+2 although I might give it extra points for awesome) to the Elf's own Athletics check (unless he has the feat that lets you use Acrobatics in place of Athletics for a jump, IIRC) as well as making it count as a running start, and I would lessen the distance needed to clear by about 2 feet (so I'd probably rule that in order to make the jump it would have to be 4 or 5 feet to clear the medium creature's likely height of 6 feet, making the DC 20 or 25). Then the Elf could make a ranged basic attack as he flew over (I'd probably give it CA and not provoke an AoO because really, seeing two enemies do this in perfect conjunction in the heat of battle would surprise most people who don't routinely see things like it), and need to succeed on an Acrobatics check afterwards to land w/o going prone. If the elf spent an action point, I'd even allow him to spend an encounter or daily while he was in the air or after he landed with the same benefits. I'm torn as to whether the dwarf giving him a leg up would be a move or a standard action, as the picture of the dwarf slicing into the wererat and readying a move action to swing around and launch the elf is too awesome for me to deny out of hand. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 57] Author : SYB Date : 04-13-09 07:58 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? If there's no mechanical pro and con, then i don't REALLY feel like the players are doing something cool, they're just doing something normal that sounds cool, Which to me (and my group I'm sure) would feel kind of hollow. If a player has a plan, i want it to be reflected in the mechanics. When it isn't, I know from experience that my players stop making plans and start just playing their powers strategically. It doesn't matter what your feelings are on the matter. If you players feel like they are doing something cool, then why ruin that feeling? Your players may be only interested in mechanics. I'm sorry for you and them. But, from the OP, I get the feeling that the players in that example are just trying to do something that "seems cool" to them. It is a rare person who will give up mechanical advantage for a moment of cool and they should be encouraged, not discouraged. -SYB -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 58] Author : Maxperson Date : 04-13-09 08:00 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? I don't think anyone is taking this to mean that the Dwarf can just grab a stationary elf and caber toss it in a 10 foot rainbow arch over a wererat. I'm pretty sure we'll all imagining the dwarf linking his fingers under the elf's heel to add some force to the elf's vault or something similar to that. Even so, this is pretty ludicrous at heroic levels. If the elf were to run and jump off a balcony and try it, that would be cool and I'd allow that for sure. I just can't see the dwarf getting the elf into a successful launch at 5th level, at least not one that would allow for the elf to fire the bow down at an orc while flying by. That just seems epic to me, perhaps paragon. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 59] Author : McThorin Date : 04-13-09 08:17 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? It doesn't matter what your feelings are on the matter. If you players feel like they are doing something cool, then why ruin that feeling? Your players may be only interested in mechanics. I'm sorry for you and them. But, from the OP, I get the feeling that the players in that example are just trying to do something that "seems cool" to them. It is a rare person who will give up mechanical advantage for a moment of cool and they should be encouraged, not discouraged. -SYB My players are interested in having their choices and ideas mean more than a just pat on the head, and i think they have a right to expect that it does. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 60] Author : Salamandyr2000 Date : 04-13-09 08:44 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? Seems to me that this is a pretty standard rule 42 situation. Like some of the others have said, it's not really a case of the dwarf "throwing" the elf, but adding his strength to the elf's leap. You've got a situation where two players are giving up a standard action and have to make two skill checks to make it work, so I think damage-wise we're looking at about the equivalent of a daily for damage (high, limited damage expression) Have each one make a moderate difficulty skill check, the dwarf Athletics, the elf acrobatics. If neither succeeds, the action fails. If one succeeds, the act succeeds, but the elf is subject to opportunity attacks from the wererat, and does low limited expression damage. If both succeed, then the elf does not draw OA, and the wererate grants combat advantage to the elf, and the attack does high limited expression damage. At fifth level that's 3d10+4 (or I would just make it 3[w]+dex). If this becomes something the players want to do all the time, then maybe make it add a cost, like require one of them to spend an Action Point to do it, since then it's not really creative fun, just something they perceive as more powerful than their standard encounters and dailies. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 61] Author : DevilDragon Date : 04-13-09 08:46 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? Really you don't think that someone giving you a leg up will help you over an obstacle. ok lets go real world for these. Cheerleaders do this quite often to toss someone higher than they can normally jump. Yes they are in shape and train often to do this, but it just goes to show that it can be done. WWF/ECW and all those other wrestling shows, They throw 200+ guys quite often. again they train but they show that it is possiable. when you start talking about weight you are just saying hey you can't do that because I can't. 100lbs or 200lbs if they are helping you to do something it really isn't that heavy. 200lbs of dead weight is alot different that 200lbs of live weight Your characters are considered in top shape, above the common citizen. They are Heroic in stature, people of unknown feats of strength and cunning. As the examples that have been given are great. If I was the DM I'd let them do it with the athletics check from the dwarf and the acrobatics from the elf. Both would provoke AOO from the rat because of the dwarf ignoring the rat to help the elf, and the elf moving through threatened square. as for the He's too high to hit, so your saying that this elf that is jumping over say a 4' creature with a 3' sword with an ability to jump at any point of a 10' arc over his square, ya he can be hit. Also for the creature being too stunned to attack.. Try jumping over a dog that is bent on attacking you and see if he is too stunned to try and bite you. I wouldn't give the elf a bonus to hit because what ever bonus gained from height would be deminished through the awkwardness of the stunt I would also give the one who came up with it extra XP's for the cool stunt.. but only this one time -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 62] Author : Johnny_Angel Date : 04-13-09 08:52 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? I could see it working similar to how jumping works. The dwarf makes an athletics check, and you divide the result similar to how you would to determine the result for jumping. I would probably require the dwarf to have free hands with which to grab and throw (or vault or whatever) the elf. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 63] Author : Maxperson Date : 04-13-09 08:59 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? Really you don't think that someone giving you a leg up will help you over an obstacle. ok lets go real world for these. Cheerleaders do this quite often to toss someone higher than they can normally jump. Yes they are in shape and train often to do this, but it just goes to show that it can be done. Not high enough and far enough clear someone else 5 feet away to land 5 feet behind him AND clear his head by enough to allow for a bow shot AND with enough agility to be facing the proper way AND with the presence of mind to pull back the bow while flying by AND quickly enough to fire ANd get an accurate shot off. This is a paragon action at the LEAST. WWF/ECW and all those other wrestling shows, They throw 200+ guys quite often. again they train but they show that it is possiable. If you want to hurl a lump a few feet, sure. I wouldn't have any issue at all if the dwarf was trying to hurl the elf INTO the creature in some WWF/ECW style move. Your characters are considered in top shape, above the common citizen. They are Heroic in stature, people of unknown feats of strength and cunning. As the examples that have been given are great. If I was the DM I'd let them do it with the athletics check from the dwarf and the acrobatics from the elf. Both would provoke AOO from the rat because of the dwarf ignoring the rat to help the elf, and the elf moving through threatened square. as for the He's too high to hit, so your saying that this elf that is jumping over say a 4' creature with a 3' sword with an ability to jump at any point of a 10' arc over his square, ya he can be hit. I wouldn't tell them no, but at heroic levels, the DC would be so high that it would virtually be guaranteed to fail. Also for the creature being too stunned to attack.. Try jumping over a dog that is bent on attacking you and see if he is too stunned to try and bite you. I used to jump over my dog on occasion while playing. He never seemed too stunned to play snap at me, or if I wasn't clearing him by enough distance, duck and try to get out of the way ;) I wouldn't give the elf a bonus to hit because what ever bonus gained from height would be deminished through the awkwardness of the stunt Heh. Awkwardness. You've just won the Nissan Understatement of the Day Award. :P I would also give the one who came up with it extra XP's for the cool stunt.. but only this one time Hey, so would I, but at paragon+ levels. Some things are just well beyond what heroes can do, that's why paragon and epic tiers exist. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 64] Author : Korpus Date : 04-13-09 09:00 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? I think how the OP ruled it was fair enough. Its better to err on the side of the players than on the NPCs for checks as I tend to encourage my players to do things like this. If they succeed then I give them something cool (jumping over the NPC without taking a OA) if they fail then I give the NPC a bonus (OA for example) and place the player in a negative situation (in this case prone on the floor near the NPC) I tell the PCs up front what they are set to gain/lose as a result of the action, then when they succeed (and they generally do) its very cinematic and they get a great sense of achievement but even in the rare cases they fail its still cinematic and tense enough for them to still be talking about it in the following sessions. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 65] Author : EvilVegan Date : 04-13-09 09:06 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? Can we at least make sure the elf either did a flip or spin to make it more like WOW? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 66] Author : Korpus Date : 04-13-09 09:18 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? Can we at least make sure the elf either did a flip or spin to make it more like WOW? Problem was he Disconnected before he landed and the party wiped :) Anyway back-flipping ninja elves were about long before WoW ;) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 67] Author : DevilDragon Date : 04-13-09 10:08 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? Not high enough and far enough clear someone else 5 feet away to land 5 feet behind him AND clear his head by enough to allow for a bow shot AND with enough agility to be facing the proper way AND with the presence of mind to pull back the bow while flying by AND quickly enough to fire ANd get an accurate shot off. This is a paragon action at the LEAST. If you want to hurl a lump a few feet, sure. I wouldn't have any issue at all if the dwarf was trying to hurl the elf INTO the creature in some WWF/ECW style move. but the character doesn't have to clear the 5'X5' square, just where the monster is at that point in the motion and he will probably also move a little to avoid being kicked in the head I wouldn't tell them no, but at heroic levels, the DC would be so high that it would virtually be guaranteed to fail. Set the DC and let the dice be the judge, the DC won't change from now til then, it will just the ease of the character to make it will change with their level. I used to jump over my dog on occasion while playing. He never seemed too stunned to play snap at me, or if I wasn't clearing him by enough distance, duck and try to get out of the way ;) Exactly Heh. Awkwardness. You've just won the Nissan Understatement of the Day Award. :P woot whats my prize... the pointy tinfoil hat!?!?! Hey, so would I, but at paragon+ levels. Some things are just well beyond what heroes can do, that's why paragon and epic tiers exist. I will always say there is always a chance for anything you want to try. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 68] Author : Maxperson Date : 04-13-09 10:16 PM Thread Title : Re: My players tried this - how do I rule it? Set the DC and let the dice be the judge, the DC won't change from now til then, it will just the ease of the character to make it will change with their level. Yep. woot whats my prize... the pointy tinfoil hat!?!?! No, no. That prize is reserved for the I've Successfully Avoided Alien Detection Today award. You just get a golf clap I'm afraid :( I will always say there is always a chance for anything you want to try. Within reason. If a level 3 character is trying to jump over a 100 wide, 300 foot deep chasm, that incredible roll of 3 20's in a row he just made was to save his life :P -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- [Post 69] Author : benichov Date : 04-14-09 12:22 AM Thread Title : OP: thank you guys! Hey folks! I am overwhelmed at the response to my query. It is clear to me that people play d&d with different attitudes, and look for different things in the game. I'll stick with my original plan with the additional mechanics thrown in: 1. When the dwarf ASSISTS in throwing the elf over the wererat, it will count at a standard action. 2. The elf will get a normal attack as he is flying overhead at a -2 3. this will be a one-time move - I will invite my players to provide for a move like this only once per game. Again, you have my sincere thanks for all your well-thought input. Warmly, Boris -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Downloaded from Wizards Community (http://forums.gleemax.com) at 04-14-09 12:23 AM.